The clowns who bring their children up with bad Irish

Learning Irish is, in the eyes of many, a form of participation in a campaign to make Irish a Gaelic-speaking country once again. It is not an academic subject as such, more a political movement. This is why statutes and EU directives are translated into Irish, despite the fact there is no call for them. This is why there is such a thing as the Caighdeán Oifigiúil. This is why we are called upon to rejoice at the news there are Gaelscoileanna in all 32 counties of Ireland. Non-native speakers are called upon to bring their children up in Irish. As Irish is the heritage of all Irish people, television broadcasts are often presented by fluent learners, sometimes with obvious flaws in their pronunciation and use of the language. Some textbooks, such as Tús Maith, use a mix of native speakers and fluent learners in their audio CDs, despite the fact that the heavy English accents of some of the speakers cannot assist the user of the course in learning good Irish. This is also why thousands of new words are being generated by the Coiste Téarmaíochta to create a language that particle physics can be discussed in. We are called upon to express sorrow when Irish-language newspapers, written in a made-up form of the language, lose their government funding. It is always all about the campaign, and not about the language itself. It is as if the Irish language were just an adjunct to the Republican cause. Er… some Republicans blow babies up; others learn the conditional tense. It’s all for Ireland.

There is an organisation called the Ultach Trust that aims to promote the language in Northern Ireland on a cross-community basis and which has published some books on the relevance of Irish to the Unionist/Protestant tradition. I welcome their work, but it seems likely to me that people who are not Republicans/Nationalists will face a constant barrage of spiteful abuse and harassment from the wider Irish language community–as indeed I have, because I’m English–because the language is largely being used to promote an extreme political viewpoint in Ireland today.

Irish is not the main language in Ireland today. It is not even the main language in the Gaeltacht. This point is made clear in the Irish Constitution, which holds that Irish is the official language of Ireland, yet English the national language. The language of Ireland today is English. Yet the political imperative of pretending that Irish is the real native language of Ireland means that many academic works on Irish are produced all in Irish–all in the made-up Irish of the Caighdeán Oifigiúil–thus rendering them useless to a learner. If you want to learn Munster Irish, Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne is an excellent work, apart from the fact that it is all in the artificial Standard, and thus useless for a learner. It is time to recognise that Ireland is an English-speaking country, and that Irish, far from being the language of the whole country, is just a minority language, albeit one previously spoken more broadly.

This means that attempts to “make the whole of Ireland speak Irish” must be dropped. I would argue that no Irish unification should be contemplated by the Unionists without the acknowledgement of this and the abolition of the fake Standard Irish. Government documents should only be available in English, to save money. The language learning movement must be refocused on the language of the Gaeltacht, and not on teaching a fake form deemed more valid for non-native speakers in the Galltacht.

I was told by an old man in the Muskerry Gaeltacht that the Irish language had been “spoilt” by the government. One of the Grianna brothers from Donegal opposed the attempt to force a made-up Irish on the Irish population. There is nothing anti-Irish about opposing this fake Irish movement. Think about it. In the 19th century, a whole generation or two of Irish people deliberately stopped speaking Irish and took up English. They did this for economic reasons, because English was the prestige language, but, nevertheless, it was the choice of Irish people to abandon the language. It is an oft-repeated lie that England forced the Irish to stop speaking Irish. How could they have done so? England introduced the English language, and the Anglo-Irish, into Ireland–by conquest, of course–and the economic opportunities in the English-speaking towns led the Irish themselves to take up English. Daniel O’Connell, the 19th-century Irish leader known as the Liberator, called on the Irish to give up Irish for economic reasons. Irish teachers–Irishmen–chose to punish children for speaking Irish at times, with the encouragement of their parents. The result was that people forced themselves to speak an absurdly badly learned form of English, sometimes even pretending they couldn’t speak any other language. Peadar Ua Laoghaire recounts in his works how people would turn up at church to learn the catechism in English–a language they couldn’t speak well–and recommended responding “dríodar! dríodar! dríodar!” to Irishmen who spoke poor English in place of their fluent native Irish. [I recommend saying “rubbish! rubbish! rubbish!” to speakers of ‘Urban Irish’.]

An equal and opposite injustice is inflicted on Irish children who are encouraged not to speak their native English. They leave the Gaelscoileanna speaking poor-quality Irish, with English phonology and anglicised grammar and vocabulary. I know of one lady, in England, raised in Ireland, who claims to be unable to discuss arithmetic and geometry in her native English, because she studied them in a non-native tongue, Irish, at school. It is a basic principle of human rights that children should be taught in their native tongues. Clearly this applies to the majority language of a community. No one arrives in Dublin from Kenya expecting schools to teach in Swahili. But as Dublin is an English-speaking city–and the English language is valid and appropriate in Dublin, as it is now a native tongue in Ireland and has been so for centuries–schools in Dublin should teach in English, by and large. The Irish language should be optional on the curriculum in Irish schools, as it is a language unlikely to be useful economically to the children.

Schools in the Gaeltacht should teach in Irish and people who move there should expect to assimilate to the local culture. But the boundaries of the fíor-Ghaeltacht are not those of the official Gaeltacht, and no attempt should be made to force Irish–a non-native tongue–onto the education system of those parts of the Gaeltacht that are not Irish-speaking, such as most of the Mayo Gaeltacht. Gaelscoileanna in places like Dublin have their place–given that Ireland is a country with a minority language where people do move around–but to set up such a school, staffed by non-native speakers, teaching children who are nearly all non-native speakers, being raised by parents who are non-native speakers, is an abuse of the concept of education, and indeed an abuse of the children’s human rights. Where Gaelscoileanna exist, they should be staffed exclusively by native speakers and serve a pupil base that has a considerable element of native speakers, and where non-native children enroll, they should be those being raised by parents with a good standard of Irish themselves. That way, the schools will not be engaged in a nonsense –the same nonsense that was seen with the promotion of English in Ireland in the 19th century.

This brings us to the problem of neo-natives. The Irish became neo-natives of English in the 19th century, those of them whose families had not adopted English long before that, but the poor ‘do be’ form of English has been brought closer to natural English by the influence of Britain and America. Peadar Ua Laoghaire made clear in his works he did not wish to see Hiberno-Irish installed as a new dialect, but wished to see Irish people have good English. Neo-natives of Irish are, however, speaking a language the users of which are nearly all weak learners. The Irish they learn and speak will not be good Irish and will never be influenced by native Irish to become so.

For example, on the Irish Language Forum, there is a clown called Saoirse who struggles with Irish herself, but claims to be raising her children through Irish. I could pick holes in the Irish she writes on that forum, but the key point is that she is a weak learner herself, trying to enforce a “language immersion” on her children. I would argue that this constitutes a form of child abuse. It is not serious sexual or physical abuse, of course, but it is a bad way to treat your children. Children are not just extensions of your hobbies–and learning Irish is just a hobby. Would a classicist choose to raise his children speaking bad Latin? Would that be regarded as an admirable thing to force on the children? The Irish language movement is becoming ever more similar to those weirdos in Cornwall who raise their children as “neo-natives” of “Revived Cornish”, a language that hasn’t been properly spoken for centuries. The thing that shocks me when reading that forum is that this person really thinks she is bringing her children up bilingual… I would guess her children will survive a weirdo Mum, and won’t look back when they leave home. This weirdo says this:

One of the saddest things is that I know many people who wish to have their children educated through Irish and there are not enough Gaelscoileanna to provide them with it. Now, that is a true breach of their rights, I believe.

Where can one start on that? It is the children’s “right” to be educated in a language that is not their native language and not the language of the community around them, all because the Mum, who doesn’t speak the language well, is abusing her children by forcing them to speak her own badly learned Irish? I’m starting to think her children should be taken away by the social services.

Another unpleasant example is the joke Gaeltacht in Belfast. A video on this can be viewed here. That video shows that there is a range of language ability among people in Northern Ireland brought up with Irish–but they certainly cannot claim to be native speakers of the language, and in general they speak with an extremely heavy accent imported from Northern Ireland English. Gá bhliain? Apparently it means “two years”. Other studies have shown that copula use is hit and miss, with forms like tá mé Éireannach common among “neo-natives” in the Belfast Gaeltacht. These people really think they are, not just weak learners, but actual native speakers of Irish.

This is not to say that no children should be brought up in Irish without native-speaking parents. For example, Shán Ó Cuív was not a native speaker, but he had a good grasp of a real dialect, that of West Muskerry (a dialect of which his parents were native speakers), and strong family connections in Cork, allowing him to raise his children with good Irish, not butchered Irish. The ability to do this, and whether it was a thing worth attempting–or something likely to be an abuse of your children’s rights–also depends on the availability of quality education by native-speaking teachers. The reliance on sending children to a Gaelscoil where teachers with poor Irish are inculcating poor Irish in the children is not the same thing at all. Similarly, English-speaking children in the Gaeltacht are in a cultural milieu that allows them to integrate into an Irish-speaking culture. There is a world of difference between that and a weak learner, with no strong grasp of any Gaeltacht dialect, raising children in Dublin or another city to speak a language not spoken by the people around it. When neither parents nor schoolteachers can introduce the child to good Irish, the attempt to create a neo-native child is simply the inflicting of an injustice on the child.

In this thread they talk about the audio files on Those audio files are very anglophone, and is pronounced exactly like “may” in English. Yet we are asked to applaud the fact that this resource has been created, by someone (a non-native speaker) who has taught Irish for 40 years in primary schools. The quality of the language is clearly of secondary importance to those who want to see the language taught in primary schools in all 32 counties of Ireland for political reasons. Irish really is a language where any old crap will do–as the political campaign is being assigned greater importance.

Another thread on the Irish Language Forum discusses Irish-language children’s parties, hosted by someone with poor Irish. The fact that the person hosting these parties has poor Irish and yet is a graduate of Irish studies speaks volumes about the quality of teaching in Ireland today where anything will do. This person is not intellectually qualified to teach Irish by immersion, and yet is offering such services for €150 a hour, no less! It ought to be illegal for non-native speakers to offer immersion teaching.

So we see children being used as extensions of their parents’ hobbies. One of the forum members, Redwolf (Audrey Nickel)–someone who regularly threatens to leave the forum if native Irish dialects gain too much emphasis on that site–claims to be angered by the idea that raising children in a language you don’t speak properly yourself is an abuse of some type. This creep seems to me to be a fully paid up politically correct loon who believes she has a right to scream denunciation at anyone who disagrees with her. Not for her a free society. Do you disagree with immigration? I expect you could have her shrieking about racism. Do you disagree with women’s rights? Maybe you could induce her to shriek about feminism. Do you disagree with the global warming fallacy? I wonder if she would scream denunciation about plastic bags and polar bears. She is at it in that thread, with the same old dreary synthetic outrage meme–she has been taught by the politically correct brigade you can win arguments that you’ve lost by shrieking outrage–but in the end, nothing can justify raising a child to speak a butchered form of a language you can’t speak yourself. That is just using your children.

Seeing as people will go to lengths to not get the point of this post, it is this: there is a level of Irish ability you need yourself before you are in a position to raise your children in a language that is not your native tongue.

Most of what is done in the name of the Irish language is nonsense–it’s time to call a halt to the Republican Sinn Féin agenda, and reserve learning Irish for those who are actually interested in learning the language as it has survived in the Gaeltacht villages.

About dj1969

at the conservative end of the libertarian spectrum
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15 Responses to The clowns who bring their children up with bad Irish

  1. David says:

    The first point of the article seems to be that anyone who speaks or learns Irish outside the Gaeltacht who is not themselves from the Gaeltacht or have a close connection with it is a Republican. Of the same ilk and people who plant bombs.

    Ive very rarely accounted any Militant Republican attitudes amongst the huge numbers of speakers and Learners I’ve met.

    The next major point is that as the Gaelscoils are not creating people who are fully fluent in any particular dialect they should just give up seems utterly ludicrous. If children are to be taught in there native tongues only, then there is very little room for developing any language skills, be they a minority language or another foreign language, Immersion education is shown to be ineffective way to give children a far greater understanding of a target language, and there is a good argument to be made for expanding this immersion to other target languages in the school system. e.g. French through French from a early age.
    The schools can only for the most part follow the curriculum they are provided, and as the government promotes one form (all be it artificial) over the rest, would it not make more sense to address the problem rather than just giving up on the whole idea.

    I would also argue that education is not only or even mostly about just gaining economic skills.
    Arguing that because a individual lacks vocabulary in English because they spent more time studying something else would suggest that all language learning other than that of you’re native tongue should be ignored until you are furnished with all the technical vocabulary you are ever likely to need (impossible), and since you assert that the main aim of school is economical then it could be equally argued that the native Irish speaking children should be taught solely through English as it is more economically useful. It also ignores the fact that many people travel around the word and excel in highly technical jobs through second languages. Technical terms can be and are learned as required once you have a good grasp of the fundamentals of a language.

    To go on and then personally insult people who don’t share you’re views or match you’re standards doesn’t help make any of the arguments look well thought out , but more of a angry petty rant. My partner helps our Child with her English, but she is not a native English speaker, I find it highly offensive that you could suggest that anyones child should be taken away when the parent is clearly trying the best they can to help a child.

    You seem to completely miss the fact that the standard of Irish promote in the education system is what many people will look to, they go out and try there best and look to what they are being told is the standard they should aim towards. Belittling and degrading peoples efforts does not encourage most people to continue. Promoting a higher standard would have more positive results, than casting insults at all who don’t match up.

    Even in the Gaeltacht there are many native speakers who have a better command of English in many subjects, or are influenced by the standardised form through the schools, youre approach would have the language solely in the hands a of a small and dwindling minority, rather than try and make the effort to improve the standard.

    For many Irish people its not a hobby, its something we feel passionately about, its a language our ancestors spoke (maybe a generation or two ago), it influences our spoken English, its in our place names, our music. Its something many of us feel a deep connection to , and maybe our efforts to preserve and revive have been far from perfect, but we are making the effort.

    Its a very negative and spiteful article.

    • djwebb2010 says:

      I have come across very few learners of Irish who were not full of spiteful and inaccurate comment about England and a number of historical issues. If Daniel O’Connell could see Ireland today, he would be amazed at just how prosperous Ireland is.

      • David says:

        you’ll find most people from nearly every country have an inaccurate and fairly nationalistic view point of world events, many English people have expressed views to me that England Civilized Ireland (some Irish think this too) or that the conflict in the North is stupid because at the end of the day we are all British, etc. Not having a complete understanding of a subject or lack of rational analysis of the information you do have has never stopped people from making sweeping and strongly felt accusations.

        But despite this tenancy to hold some nationalistic views on a subject, very few people are militantly nationalistic in either Ireland or England. Personally ive been very surprised by the low number of people ive come across learning Irish who could be considered Republicans, especially so given that the restoration of Irish is supposedly such a key element of Irish Republicanism.

        I would not peg anyone as Republican over something like a throw away remark like “the English were responsible for the Famine”, nor would I feel anyone is a rapid British Imperialist when they make stupid remarks like “some Brits like to pretend they aren’t Brits” in reference to a separate Irish identity. Just that on those particular subjects they are incredibly ill informed and thoughtless.

      • djwebb2010 says:

        Look, to a large extent I see even ill-informed nationalism as possibly positive for society in that it promotes a sense of national pride and a positive image of society, so I am not interested in telling Irish people they shouldn’t be nationalistic, but on the specific point that “the Irish language is the real language of everyone in Ireland” and the campaign to make Ireland Gaelic-speaking again, it leaves me cold, as I realise they’re not really interested in the language as such! I can assure you I do not care what people’s political views are – I hope they extend the same courtesy to me – and I’m just interested in the language!!

  2. Rhinelander says:

    I am mostly sharing what you say, David. The truth lies often between two outermosts. From birth, we are somehow all building our skills of speaking and writing and have unsame skills to point out things. In our mothertongue, we have mostly reached the full stretch of skills when we are teenagers. In tongues learnt thereafter, the building of skills either never ends or much later in life. However, we are picking up new bits while we are spending much of our time in fellowship with others.

    Well, Irish is owned by all Irish folks passed on by their forefathers from past times to nowadays in some ways. Learning and teaching Irish in Ireland is not the same like teaching Spanish in Ireland. Irish is linked to Irish selfdom and has shaped the Irish all along the times while Spanish is not at all linked to the Irish as folkset. Therefore, it is worth keeping Irish alive by speaking it in family and with children. It is right that this makes no sense if the elders only have broken Irish. However, there is a wide stretch between broken Irish and forfit Irish. Even in the Gaeltacht, I have heard heavily English-inflowed speech from old-line mothertongue speakers other than older grown-ups or speakers from the strongest Gaeltacht swathes. We should not forget that in truth, most Gaeltacht speakers have forfit English like mothertongue speakers. For byspell, I have highly often heard Gaeltacht folks speaking the broad r nearly like an English one, however not the sleder r. Speaking both the broad and slender r like an English one aches a bit in my ears. Gaeltacht Irish has been changing towards so called urban Irish, too. If the Irish had gone back speaking Irish all over the island, the Gaeltacht folks may have been soaked up by English-inflowed Irish, but the Irish may understand older written works like Máirtín Ó Cadhain or Peig Sayers. In Israel, Hebrew had been brought back as mothertongue of all Jews there. Even if the Hebrew spoken today is not that of old days and shows the inflow from the formerly spoken tongues, it is said that Moses would be understood if he came back in Israel.

    It is, however, fully right to seek the old-line mothertongue speakers to better one´s skills in Irish whenever reachsome. It is silly to think that it is not that worth looking to the skills of Gaeltacht speakers as goal to reach. The work for Irish by twoth-tongue speakers ought to be welcomed, but Gaeltacht speakers ought to be sought for help for matters like coining new words. I have met Gaeltacht folks who welcome the coining of new words and their brook if words are not coined with mistakes. In a talk on a learner DVD, an inborn Gaeltacht man has said that he has taken up some of the coinings he has heard from folks from outside the Gaeltacht as some words are handy to be brooked instead of English borrowings.

    Written works by well-skilled writers are another way to better up steadily one´s Irish. It is as well up to the schools to teach the children and youngsters to handle the tongue with ease while stirring the gladness to read works in Irish. Children brought up with Irish may enrich their skills with ease even if their elders have not forfit Irish. Peig Sayers and other books like that are not the only good stuff in Irish.

    The settings of the 18th and 19th yearhundred in Ireland were unsame to those of nowadays. The Irish had to learn to understand English and to speak it a bit as only English has been brooked officially, but nobody did teach it to them and most of the Irish were too poor to buy English-learning books. Therefore, they had to brook whatever English they could pick up. The English spoken in Ireland has, however, kept some inflow from Irish in the years thereafter. It has to be looked to that only those teachers will get to teach Irish who have truly a good grasp of Irish. It is better to have fewer Irish teachers, but all well-skilled, while the needed skills are rising with each schoolyear. I have read thread on a forum where a youngster girl told that she had been taught a few wrong things in Irish at school. Such is a shame!

    It happens sometimes, that new bytongues see the light from (heavy) inflow of other tongues. Even new tongues in its own right can come up like has happened in Lowland Scotland or in the Caribic. Irish English, all above in the east of Ireland, could have been built up as a new tongue in its own right of the Irish like Lallans in Lowland Scotland.

    Le deá-mhéin, Alex

    • djwebb2010 says:

      Alex, I’m sure you’re right about many things, but your English is very hard to understand. There is no such thing as English-inflowed Irish. Do you mean English-influenced Irish? You can’t say “inflowed”. There are numerous things that make your comment hard to understand and therefore to evaluate.

  3. Rhinelander says:

    Another point

    Instead of teaching bytongues of the Gaeltacht swathes left outside today´s Gaeltacht, the own bytongues should have been taught and brought back in speech. By the end of the 19th yearhundred, last mothertongue speakers have still been alive in nearly every county so that those could have pass on their Irish to others. All above Leinster is without its own bytongue, even without its own main bytongue. The keeping up of Leinster Irish could have strengthened the link of Leinsterfolks to Irish and stirred more folks to eagerly take up the tongue instead of seeing it rather as the tongue of those folks in the West.

    Sin é a cheapaim faoi láthair, Alex

    • djwebb2010 says:

      Alex, the fact is there is no Leinster Irish to keep up.

      • Rhinelander says:

        Today, there is in truth no Leinster Irish. But it seems that there has still been a dwindling crowd of Irish speakers speaking what is nothing else but Leinster Irish throughout the 19th yearhundred. I have read that last mothertongue speakers in Leinster had lived on until the beginning of the 20th yearhundred. The book “stair na Gaeilge” is said to touch the former Irish of Leinster. It is said that Westmeath and Longfort had Connacht Irish, Louth and Monaghan Ulster Irish and some swathes of Southern Leinster are said to have had Munster Irish. I have to search for more knowledge on this topic. However, it is clear that most counties in Ireland had last mothertongue speakers of their own kind of Irish until at least 100 years ago. When I had read about this, it has come to my mind why the teaching of Irish has not been grounded on the own bytongues (=dialects) of each swathe after having done anything to get the knowledge from the last mothertongue speakers put down. Why did they not begin, such as, to teach children at school Kilkenny Irish in the county of Kilkenny or Clare Irish in the county of Clare?

        From what I have heard from non-mothertongue speakers of Irish, it is the wish to strengthen one´s Irishness by linking back to the land´s past and as well to enrich one´s own mind. What else helps to strengthen the national pride than to keep up and bring back to life the tongue of one´s forefathers? This link is well stirring a love for Irish in itself. Healthy nationale pride will not lead to looking down onto others. In Northern Ireland, there seems to be still too much foesome feelings against each other instead of all above the will to keep up and bring life into the own tongue and culture. It is to welcome that the inborn Irish learn, teach and speak Ulster Irish and the Ulster Scots do so with Ulster Scots. It does not pay neither for the Ulster Irish nor for the Ulster Scots to show foesomeness (hostileness) to each other.

        Even if mother and/or father do not speak in flawless Irish, the children will be in touch with Irish from birth and will not have to learn it from nothing, but can work at bettering up their Irish such as reading works of Gaeltacht writers and seeking to learn from Gaeltacht folks. However, I am not saying that elders should speak in a tongue to their children which they have truly poor knowledge of. We may have unsame understandings of what means poor knowledge. In my eyes, one ought to master well everyday speech and steadily seek to get better in that tongue to raise children in it. It is, in my eyes, worth shifting to the tongue of the forefathers in family for the sake to strengthen the link to one´s roots and will enrich the children and help to keep the manifoldness all over the world.

        By the way: I wish to use as many truly English words as I can and have been searching for English words for those clearly borrowed from other tongues in an online wordbook. But there are seemingly mistakes in it…


  4. Gary says:

    A Dhaithí Is maith liom i gconaí duine go bhfull glór diúltach aige (tú théinig mar shampla) ach an … ní maith liom an focal fuath a rá … an míshásamh a thá agat – ní thigim. Dá fheabhas do cuid Gaolainn níl aon maith déanta nuair a mbíonn tú ag tabhairt faoi dhaoine neamhdhochrach. Ar aghaidh leat leis an obair iúntach agus dún do shúil ar na daoine éidreorach. Keep up the good work and ignore the misguided ones – remember the phrase – praise the child and it will come. Please feel free to pick holes in my Irish. Bier bua

  5. Gary says:

    Beir bua – sin é dobáil dom do rá – Slán

  6. Yola Gabble says:

    I think people are very right to keep up Irish as its an important part of our heritage but life evolves, its hard to turn that around, its highly unlikely that Irish will ever be the first spoken language again. Where I live Irish hasn’t been spoken since the 12th century so I don’t really consider it a part of my heritage and we don’t feel the same connection to it here, so its not the same for everyone. We spoke a dialect of anglo-frisian called yola and it was the only language here from that period until the introduction of modern English in the mid 19th century.

  7. Hebrew was revived as a mother tongue in the late 19th and the early 20th Centuries although no-one had Hebrew as their first language for many centuries. If Hebrew was “resurrected” without mother speakers, why couldn’t Ireland revive its own language with just a few thousands who have genuine Irish as their mother tongue? It’s true that modern Hebrew is different from biblical Hebrew, (in the same way that “urban Irish” is an anglicised and simplified form of genuine Irish) but also modern English could also be seen as a simplified form of Anglo-Saxon with a lot of Norman French and Latin influence.

    • djwebb2010 says:

      You have admitted yourself that Hebrew wasn’t properly revived. It has emerged as a language that is Germanic in its syntax, rather than Semitic. I don’t think Modern Hebrew worth learning. Its speakers can’t read the Bible in Hebrew even!

      • Dáithí says:

        Hebrew is often trotted out as an example of language revival. However there is one major factor at play, the world Jewish population spoke a huge range of diverse languages. A common tongue was needed for the new state, and the most commonly spoken ones, Yiddish and Arabic had a lot of political baggage for the young Jewish nation.

        In most other minority language situations they have been eroded by one neighboring language, and all the people of that ethnic group now have a new common lingua franca, so the need for a new language as in the case of Israel is very much diminished. Irish, Scotish Gaelic and Welsh by English or Breton and Occitan by French etc.

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